Forums: Suggestions

Making this new skill would also mean making new weapons and moves. I would also suggest an archery range as an addition.

First off: The idea of ranged weapons was already suggested – it has been discussed on the development server. At this point, there are still a lot of problems with this suggestion, that go far beyond “making new weapons and moves”.*

Second: What do you mean by archery range? A building? What should it do?

• The problem is, that we need to make a whole skill tree. Coming up with actions – especially “ranged only” actions – is easy. Coming up with items is even easier. There are lots of other questions, but I don’t know if I am allowed to post a lengthy text about that stuff here on the live server.

(And, no offense, but if I was to post a suggestion, I’d write some stuff about it and not only give an idea. Having an idea is all fine and good, but you can’t expect the dev team to work out every detail of whats basically your idea. It’s better to give some examples yourself, of how it should work, how it should relate to the rest of the game, what it should include, etc.
You have that opportunity now, with your suggestion of the Archery Range.)

the main issue we have with ranged is why use them with metatherics? and if you do use ranged most require 2 hands eliminating the main staple of combat in aethora, that being multiple kill attacks.

For one thing, we can use one handed weapons.
Javelins and throwing knives, for example.
the reason to use them could be better ranges then pure metatheric attacks.

but with that arises the question of quantity, trying to blend realism and playability can quiet difficult. There will be people complaining no matter what we do.

Plus: Throwing weapons, especially those actually dealing a good amount of damage – javelins, throwing axes, maybe even throwing hammers – usually don’t have the super-high range themselves, especially compared to a bow. I don’t know if giving them more range than metatherics – this would have to be some 6 or 7 spaces, as some metatherics attacks work on 5, would be that good. Bows? Sure, 10 spaces, no problem, maybe more. But throwing a javelin as a weapon? A lot less.
And there we go: Range is dependant on action combo used, not on weapon, a thrown weapon could be a knife, low damage, high speed, high range, or a thrown hammer, high damage, low speed, low to medium range… then again… let me ponder this. (Ranged = Thrown, subclasses by weight, different attacks with different subclasses, so different range on different weight… the ammo idea already suggested… damage versus ammo to stand apart… yeah, that might actually work… thrown weapons have in-built ammo)

We’ll have to see about it, but I think you just gave me an idea about thrown weapons, Tremir. I can only suggest and articulate the suggestion over at the testing server but I’ll see what I can do. Still, to make a full-fledged skill tree, we need three meaningful levels, in order to not make it more asymmetrical as it will become by the different combination possibilities (Melee, Ranged, Meta, Melee-Melee, Meta-Meta, Melee-Meta, Ranged-Meta – no Ranged-Ranged, Melee-Ranged)…
Ranged
- Thrown
-— Light (Daggers, Stones)
-- Medium (Axes, Javelins)
-- Heavy (Hammers)
- Bows?
-— What subclasses? How to solve the separate ammo problem?
Doesn’t look too bad for a start. (The three levels here are Ranged – Thrown – Light, for example. We don’t need three different types of Ranged weapons, but to meaningfully have the distinction between Ranged – and Thrown, making it two levels (for a total of three, with the subclasses added to thrown and whatever the other will be), we need at least a second item on the level that Thrown is on.)

Anyhow, new skill trees will still take a while, even if we have them, to be introduced. And yes, there is a meaning to me using plural on that instance.

Here’s another thought:
Bows come with quivers, which take the second hand slot.
The bow gives the ranges skill, and the quiver gives the ammo.
This also allows us to put meta skills on the quiver, and solve the 2 handed problem and the ammo problem at once, while still allowing for skill combos.

Still defeats the premise of the game: To combine two weapons to get an effect. What you suggested had already been suggested by Commander Saavik. Problem: You still only take one weapon, no combos anymore, plus we’d need an additional ammo skill tree, because
Bow + Ammo + Fire means shooting a flaming arrow
if we do not take that step, it’ll be either
Bow + Firecoil (no ammo) means shooting a flaming arrow without fire
being possible or
Bow + Fire-Ammo means there is no combination possibility, just ranged-ranged, compulsory.
which completely eliminates the combo-part. (We’d actually make action combos only for Bow + Firearrow, Bow + Normalarrow etc. – and likely, it wouldn’t take away the necessity for an additional ammo skill tree)

Saaviks actual idea was actually to make the arrow according to melee combos, like arrows being short blades. That way, you could still have some sort of combinability – and stabbing an enemy with an arrow in melee – but that would, however, also allow the bow to be used with any shortblade.

So, while I have to thank you for presenting this idea, I fear it holds no solution to the problems.

Not precisely what I meant.
Forget the Ammo skill, since it just overcomplicates things without adding anything.
Put a function on the bow that checks for a quiver.
No quiver, no Missile action.
If you have a quiver, you can either use a normal Arrow attack, or use a combo.
Bow + Fire quiver → Fire Arrow
Fire Bow + any quiver → Arrow, Fire Arrow, any other combo
Fire Bow + Fire/Ice quiver → Fire Arrow, Ice Arrow, and any Fire/Ice attacks
etc.

You could also add a counter of sorts to the quiver, to make it empty at some point.
Probably resets at the start of each battle, to save server space and prevent bows being totaly unusable.

In addition, you could make quivers have just 1 secondary skill, to prevent them being used as coils, Which makes them combo with either the Missile skill or whatever secondary the bow has.

It does force you to use the bow most of the battle, and might be a bit constrictive, but there’s probably no way around that except to make bows the same as any other weapon (one handed, no ammo)

Question is: How easy or hard will it be to make that function on the bow that checks for a quiver?
The possibility hasn’t come up yet, so my guess was simply that it’s a lot more code/work than anything else. (Whenever we thought about a secondary quiver item, the question of how to check for it came up – and with it an ammo skill tree.)

Ammo, limited, and by battle has been suggested. Don’t know how much work it’ll be to implement it, but we could see it as another factor.

Hey Guys, me again. the idea of the archery range is a an area where you can train your bow+arrow skills and also throwing knives. Hey, I’m sorry about the weapons thing, I just don’t like sounding pushy.
My Ideas on ranged weapons would be throwing knives, bow+arrow and throwing axes.For the bow+arrow, the bow can be the metatheric part. For example; Firebow, Frostbow and trainingbow. For arrows we can have steel arrows, wooden arrows and training arrows. The can be three types of quiver, small, large and normal, each with different capacity. You guys can build from there.

Ah, that’s better.
On Archery Range, some very basic questions:
Why only for archery, not for melee and metatherics a training range?
Why a training range, as training is easy enough in game?
How should the training work? Suspending your character for a time, or instant, what cost, what increment, what limit? Would ammo be used?

On your Ranged suggestion:
Throwing Knives and Axes – Thrown
Bows + Arrows – Bows
How to fit that into a three-leveled skill tree, OR: Why should the Ranged skill tree be the only fighting skill tree without three levels?
How do three items (different bows + different arrows + different quivers) fit into one item, or two items, and how should it work? What would be the purpose of the different arrows? Increase damage? Only? Increase Speed as well? Decrease Speed? Shouldn’t there be more than three types?
In fact with what KINDS of items you imagine you haven’t told anything new:
Different Bows with different properties, different (quality) arrows in different (size) quivers.
How are ranged weapons related to the game? What makes them stand apart from metatherics or melee? How is it combinable – as an action – with metatherics or melee? Or is it only combinable via the metatherics component of the bow, as you can’t carry a second weapon anyway?

That’s just some of the question I can ask right out of my head. Oh, if you could read the two-pages (full of LONG posts) discussion thread on the development server… we even discussed the problem of a Line-Of-Sight, as right now, you could shoot through any obstacle, as we can’t define a blocked LOS.

Edit:

You guys can build from there.

I don’t think so. This is still pretty vague. It still doesn’t answer all the questions I posed in my first reply to it, nor does it answer most of it to any degree of sufficiency, and it pays no attention to the ongoing discussion, the problems and questions posed in the replies on the topic.
It’s just naming some staples of other games and saying: Do that.
It doesn’t include the slightest hint of “what exactly” and “how”.

I know this can also be seen as you showing trust in our abilities. But if the devs are to invent that system all by themselves, they will do as they please, what means you maybe won’t like it, because you can’t do certain things you outright imagined to be able to do (we can’t read your mind) and they will do it at their priority.

What does that mean?
February 8th, the Ranged Suggestion pops up on the development server. Since then, discussion has been ongoing. About what? Not on what kinds of arrows, if we should include Barbed Arrows to Steel Arrows, Wooden Arrows and Training Arrows.
No, principle stuff:
Range? Higher or lower than metatherics?
Downsides? Line Of Sight? How to realize that? Will it be even good without LOS, even if it does not have to be seen as a downside?
Ammo? Limited or not, if limited, how? Total or per-battle?
Item number? One or two, or make one two-handed (would require an option to make an item two-handed)? Will it break the game because of lack of combinability? How to realize a separate quiver (second item)? Will we need an additional ammo skill tree for that?
and so on, and so on.

If we were at the point where we can leisurely think about what three types of arrows or what sizes of quivers we want, we’d have the basic skill tree set up, and we’re still far from that.
(Imagine: you don’t even state basic numbers, or number relations for the quivers? Can be anything from
small: 10 arrows to medium 100, to large 1000
to small 15, medium 16, large 18…
and do you think the arrows would get used up and would have to be re-bought or would they be unlimited and only restricted in per-battle use by the size of the quiver?)

Fact is: When I read “For arrows we can have steel arrows, wooden arrows and training arrows.” I think you’re trying to kid me. As on my first reply I wrote:
“Coming up with items is even easier.” and
“It’s better to give some examples yourself, of how it should work, how it should relate to the rest of the game,…”
What should the different arrows do? I can, out of my head, in an instant name you almost a dozen words to describe different arrows, negative and positive:
Negative: Bent, Weak, Blunt, Splintered
Positive: Bodkin, Strong, Balanced, Excellent, Barbed
Positive and Negative: Heavy, Light
Plus combinations: Strong Bodkin, Balanced Bodkin, Excellent Bodkin, Strong Barbed, or conversely Weak Barbed, Bent Barbed, Heavy Bodkin, no problem. Those are staples, I just have to recite them out of my head. Doesn’t affix a meaning to the words, though.

If I say now:
Negative could have different effects:
Weak or Blunt do less damage,
Bent is slower,
Splintered is both,
Bodkin, Strong and Barbed do more damage,
Balanced is quicker,
Excellent does both.
Heavy does more damage, less speed,
Light the other way around.
That’s giving them a meaning.
It’s basic, and I – personally – wouldn’t make the suggestion if this was all I had.

No offense, but you’ll have to see there is only a limited number of devs available, and they’re all volunteers. They don’t get paid, they do this because they like it, and because they want to realize stuff they imagined. All of them are either in a job, or in some sort of training/school, and they need to do much stuff for their real lives. Every dev has own ideas – those can be specific enemies he wants to see included, or a mission/story he wants to write and be told… a lot of stuff. There are even – apart from Ranged – two other skill tree ideas floating around on the development server.
If you really want to have a suggestion as large as this realized (it’s a HUGE difference between something like this, and, for example, the market logger that gives you a log message when one of your trader sold something – one is a setting, an option, an interface change or a convenience, the other is a full game concept that will be seen and felt throughout – and thus has to be in compliance with – the rest of the game system) you’ll have to be as detailed and elaborate as you can about it: Best case: You explain it so well and thoroughly that you instantly give Sheck an idea on how to realize it, and you see it included within weeks. That doesn’t happen very often, though (at least not with large gaming concepts).
So you’ll have to do some more footwork. The only things the “other” (non-Sheck) devs can do is to tell you what’s wrong or what’s missing on your idea, so you can work it out, iron it out, further elaborate it.

So, you may ask: Why can’t the devs simply take it from there? What do they do, anyways?
I can tell you that most of the devs have lots of own ideas they continually strive to realize, they brainstorm them, they discuss them, they get criticized, they rework them, until they are finished. Why should anyone take away the precious working time from one of his own, equally important projects, to work on an idea of yours that you obviously aren’t willing to elaborate any further yourself?

As I said: No offense, but I hope you understand what I’m trying to get at when you re-read the whole thread.

Let’s put aside bow and crossbow type weapons, since we’re not getting anywhere.
About the possibility of one handed thrown weapons:
Working from within the 3 tier system, we can split it into:
Ranged – Sharp
Ranged – Blunt

Sharp can include javelins, throwing axes, and possibly throwing knives.
Blunt can include hammers and rocks, since I can’t think of another blunt option right now.

another possibility:
Ranged – heavy
Ranged – light

heavy will include javelins and hammers
light will include axes and knives, and possibly rocks

the first allows for bows to be added as sharp and slings as blunt, if the other problems with them are solved, and the second allows for longbows to be added as heavy and shortbows as light.

the main problem I see here is making ranged skills combo with melee skills.
even for the one handed ranged weapons, the best combo actions I can see involves throwing the ranged weapon to lower the enemy’s guard, working like a temporary Expose Enemy for the melee attack.
Other then that, Ranged and Melee don’t work together.
an even bigger problem is ranged working with ranged. you simply don’t throw a javelin and an axe together.

ranged and meta is easy, of course.

Well thought, Tremir, although the “weight” type of subclassing was something I already mentioned. ;)

Problem with your suggestion is: Most people who want Ranged Skill Type want Bows. That’s the primary, the first and foremost of wishes. (And Crossbows, which I find very hard to imagine in the setting of aethora – we’ve come up with an explanation for bows and thrown weapons… but crossbows?)

Combinations as you mention are, at first, not really a problem – there are, as of now, much less melee-melee combos than metatherics-metatherics or melee-metatherics (and vice-versa, as what way around doesn’t matter anyways) so it’d just seem natural there’d be less or no ranged-ranged or ranged-melee versions. That’s sad, but metatherics are just a lot more combination-friendly.

A problem ensues when you cannot combine a weapon with another one: You end up being stuck at very limited possibilities. Of course, making a “Firebow” would, in that theoretical scenario, be possible, but it would be limited to ranged-fire nonetheless, and it would be the only weapon that can do the ranged-fire action combo – and thus, likely, such a combo (for just that weapon) would come to be expected. Right now, we do have some freedom of creation with items, and can see what will happen if we mix and match several classes of melee types and metatherics type into the two weapons.

So: Thrown idea, good, and likely, your idea of splitting it
Thrown
- Heavy
-— Javelins
-- Hammers
- Light
-— Axes
-- Knives
seems like a good last resort.

I’d still like
Ranged
- Thrown
-— Heavy
-- Light
- Bows
-— Something
-- Something else
more, but we’ll have to see how this (bows) can be worked out.

Anyways – Sheck won’t be in again until thursday or friday, I can’t make any final calls, and even if we’d come up with a solution spontaneously, it’d still likely take until the release of the second continent (which, I admit, is still a bit into the future*) before we can introduce new skill trees (story-wise, as well as learning-curve wise). So… we do have some time to discuss this.

*The coming of a new continent has been mentioned before. Currently, it’s still very much future-talk, though, seeing that about one third of the current continent isn’t yet in the game/playable. We’re working on that, and once that’s finished, and athership travel (which has been mentioned before as well) is in the game, we can hope the next/new continent will come rather quickly.

Maybe the “Bows” category could be a bullets category? Then the two under the “Bullets” category are Bows and Sling?

The idea of slings, slingshots and such came up, but it has separation of weapon and ammo as well, and it has all the other implementation problems, too.

Ah, I see.